Turbocharged Coyote/6R80 Swap, Build/Discussion Thread, Pics, info inside!

96gt4.6 said:
I run a 38mm gate, mounted between the crossover and down pipe where they pass beside each other right underneath the driver side floor pan/firewall. So far, I've had good luck with this method with boost control and longevity, so we'll see how it works out on the 5.0L. I have been able to go as low as 2 psi, and as high as 16 psi on previous builds, granted they were Turbo Chevy LS small block setups.
Click to expand...

Can the new PCM speak boost? Can you map a boost controller output using the PCM? It certainly is good to be able to control it electronically, and from the PCM itself (throttle position, RPM) rather than a simple max boost wastegate pneumatic control.

The setup I used years a go was a solenoid cycling between manifold pressure and atmosphere using a PWM output from the PCM (aftermarket Autronics unit) with the resulting controlled pressure applied against the wastegate diaphragm. Electronic control pneumatically actuated.
 
lifespeed said:
Can the new PCM speak boost? Can you map a boost controller output using the PCM? It certainly is good to be able to control it electronically, and from the PCM itself (throttle position, RPM) rather than a simple max boost wastegate pneumatic control.

The setup I used years a go was a solenoid cycling between manifold pressure and atmosphere using a PWM output from the PCM (aftermarket Autronics unit) with the resulting controlled pressure applied against the wastegate diaphragm. Electronic control pneumatically actuated.
Click to expand...

To my knowledge there isn't an output I could use on the ECU for this function. However, my wide band is gauge/controller will be capable of such functions. I will be most likely using the E Boost line of gauges for a controller/boost gauge.

However, initially I will be relying on the spring pressure of the waste gate for boost control. It's worked very well in the past for me.

Great idea though! And in all honesty, there may be an output on the ECU i'm not aware of, however MAP pressure is inferred on these ECU's so I don't believe it can read boost whatsoever.
 
96gt4.6 said:
To my knowledge there isn't an output I could use on the ECU for this function. However, my wide band is gauge/controller will be capable of such functions. I will be most likely using the E Boost line of gauges for a controller/boost gauge.



However, initially I will be relying on the spring pressure of the waste gate for boost control. It's worked very well in the past for me.



Great idea though! And in all honesty, there may be an output on the ECU i'm not aware of, however MAP pressure is inferred on these ECU's so I don't believe it can read boost whatsoever.
Click to expand...


I rely on a 50MM Tial to blow off enough boost to atmosphere at anything above 5#s to keep me under 19#s. This works very well until around 6,000RPMS and the F-1 is simply building and building. I've risked it up 6,300 or so and backed out of it as it was tripping past 20#s on 93 pump.

With the 110 gas I replace the spring with a solid piece of pipe and good god it comes on fast! 26#s at only 6,000 RPM, then the clutch slips. No idea of its full potential?


Sent from my iThrone using Tapatalk
 
96gt4.6 said:
To my knowledge there isn't an output I could use on the ECU for this function. However, my wide band is gauge/controller will be capable of such functions. I will be most likely using the E Boost line of gauges for a controller/boost gauge.

However, initially I will be relying on the spring pressure of the waste gate for boost control. It's worked very well in the past for me.

Great idea though! And in all honesty, there may be an output on the ECU i'm not aware of, however MAP pressure is inferred on these ECU's so I don't believe it can read boost whatsoever.
Click to expand...

The PCM is not the same as used on ecoboost trucks?
 
chief455 said:
forgive my ignorance here, but wouldn't the PCM also need a MAP sensor designed to signal boost pressure and vacuum?
Click to expand...

Yes, and my understanding is Ford ecoboost trucks have a MAP sensor. I can't imagine how it would be possible to correctly control a modern turbo engine without the PCM reading and controlling the pressure in the manifold.

I was surprised to learn our 4.6L doesn't have a MAP sensor.
 
lifespeed said:
Yes, and my understanding is Ford ecoboost trucks have a MAP sensor. I can't imagine how it would be possible to correctly control a modern turbo engine without the PCM reading and controlling the pressure in the manifold.

I was surprised to learn our 4.6L doesn't have a MAP sensor.
Click to expand...
how did the 03/04 Cobra regulate fuel etc during boost? Maybe copy that?
I guess, given this is a 5.0 Coyote, we are derailing the thread though.
 
chief455 said:
how did the 03/04 Cobra regulate fuel etc during boost? Maybe copy that?
I guess, given this is a 5.0 Coyote, we are derailing the thread though.
Click to expand...

My point was the donor vehicle for this build, 2012 F150, was also offered with a 3.5L twin turbo. I guess I don't know if they use the same PCM.
 
chief455 said:
forgive my ignorance here, but wouldn't the PCM also need a MAP sensor designed to signal boost pressure and vacuum?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, there are many ways to get the ECU what it needs. How it's currently being accomplished is via keeping the MAF sensor in play as a blow-through setup. The PCM actually inferrs MAP pressure on the Copperhead ECU. I have a MAP pid, but it's all inferred off of MAF data and the other various inputs.

Getting the ECU to read boost, won't be the issue here. A lot of times, the answers to some of these questions have been tackled by others. My thought process, there are many bolt on turbo/supercharger kits for the Mustang out there, all of which use the stock ECU with no MAP and all are blow-through MAF setups with the stock MAF. After looking at the tunes that come with these kits, you can see how it's being accomplished rather well.

Good discussion though guys, they are valid points!


lifespeed said:
My point was the donor vehicle for this build, 2012 F150, was also offered with a 3.5L twin turbo. I guess I don't know if they use the same PCM.
Click to expand...

You are correct on one aspect, but not the other. Unfortunately the EcoBoost trucks use a TC-1797 (TriCore) PCM, and the Coyote's use a Copperhead ECU, which unfortunately are two totally different worlds both program wise, and pin out wise. It wouldn't even be possible to use that ECU. I see the 2015+ Pickups appear to use the same ECU as their EcoBoost counterpart though, at least by physical comparison, so for anyone using a 2015+ ECU I believe this idea might work. However, last I knew, the EPATS cannot be disabled on a 2015+ as of yet.
 
chief455 said:
how did the 03/04 Cobra regulate fuel etc during boost? Maybe copy that?
I guess, given this is a 5.0 Coyote, we are derailing the thread though.
Click to expand...

Not much can be done with that data. The ECU's between those cars, and the Cobra's or any older EEC-V are entirely different programming wise from the Copperhead ECU the Coyote uses.

Appreciate the input though!
 
chief455 said:
how did the 03/04 Cobra regulate fuel etc during boost? Maybe copy that?
I guess, given this is a 5.0 Coyote, we are derailing the thread though.
Click to expand...

Every vehicle from from that has been boosted from 2003 and up have both maf and map sensors, most have two IAT as well......
 
hotford said:
Every vehicle from from that has been boosted from 2003 and up have both maf and map sensors, most have two IAT as well......
Click to expand...

This is not entirely true, and not trying to be offensive, just correcting the statement.

Most all EcoBoost 3.5's are entirely speed density with no MAF sensor, there are some exceptions in the early 3.5L EcoBoost F150's however.

A good example would be the Taurus SHO Models with the 3.5L Eco. They have no MAF sensor whatsoever, as well as my 2015 F150 3.5L Eco has no MAF.

They do however, have two (and in some cases 3) MAP sensors and at least 2 IAT sensors, but all Eco 3.5L are Speed Density as far as fuel control goes.
 
96gt4.6 said:
This is not entirely true, and not trying to be offensive, just correcting the statement.

Most all EcoBoost 3.5's are entirely speed density with no MAF sensor, there are some exceptions in the early 3.5L EcoBoost F150's however.

A good example would be the Taurus SHO Models with the 3.5L Eco. They have no MAF sensor whatsoever, as well as my 2015 F150 3.5L Eco has no MAF.

They do however, have two (and in some cases 3) MAP sensors and at least 2 IAT sensors, but all Eco 3.5L are Speed Density as far as fuel control goes.
Click to expand...

I can uderstand that, having run speed density on my 93 LT-1 cars. Reading air intake via speed density or mass air flow, PCM can chnge instantly. For boost, how else could the PCM know the engine fuel/spark needs instantly without reading manifold pressure? Opposed to reading boost pressure and reacting at the PCM (too late, I'd think). my feable thoughts - and I'm done.
great read, love this thread!
 
A comparison of engine management schemes:

Speed density with MAP only and narrowband O2 was the first and easiest to implement sensor-wise, think 5.0 Ford V8 from the late 1980's. Pretty decent control, simple and cheap. Downside was imperfect air mass calculation from RPM, MAP and volumetric efficiency especially clean emissions when operating at open-loop power levels. Power was good, but it was imperfect for efficiency and emissions. This was great for turbo engines as a MAF did not need to be included in the plumbing and it provided the necessary wastegate control input as well.

MAF (with optional MAP)and narrowband O2 has better mixture control as at measures exactly how much air is mixing with the fuel rather than a speed-density estimation. This is our 4.6L V8. It didn't take long to figure out that MAP wasn't strictly necessary in this config, but some cars have it. It is desirable to have MAP also in boosted cars using MAF if you have electronic control of the boost as it is a more direct control loop. This setup is more efficient than speed density, and could have a marginal power improvement to the extent the open-loop tune can result in a more accurate mixture. A good speed-density tune can be very close in power.

Wideband O2 and MAP like the current Ford Ecoboost or Cadillac LF turbo engines. The MAF-calculated air input to the table is replace with a combustion result measurement on the output side. Efficiency and emissions are optimized, and this continues to work at all mixture levels and throttle settings, resulting in excellent mixture accuracy at loads that were open-loop with the previous two systems. MAP is used for turbo control and open-loop fuel mapping refined with O2 data. This is the best of all worlds.
 
96GT4.6, joined this forum so I could comment on this thread.

Don't own a Panther any more, let my '04 CVPI go a year ago, but was doing research on a Coyote/6R80 swap for my Mustang and found this thread as I searched.

This was the first thread I found dealing with using the 6R80 with the Coyote, and it has given me what I needed, confirmation that the swap is not only possible but practical as well.

Great thread full of very useful info, even for me, even though I'm not working with a Panther platform.

Thanks!

Oh, by the way, just FYI, the exhaust on the 11+ Coyote Mustangs is a bit of a jumble, it is mostly 2.75" diameter, but has a section just behind the cats that necks down to 2.5" then back up to the 2.75 size.
 
Ltngdrvr said:
96GT4.6, joined this forum so I could comment on this thread.

Don't own a Panther any more, let my '04 CVPI go a year ago, but was doing research on a Coyote/6R80 swap for my Mustang and found this thread as I searched.

This was the first thread I found dealing with using the 6R80 with the Coyote, and it has given me what I needed, confirmation that the swap is not only possible but practical as well.

Great thread full of very useful info, even for me, even though I'm not working with a Panther platform.

Thanks!

Oh, by the way, just FYI, the exhaust on the 11+ Coyote Mustangs is a bit of a jumble, it is mostly 2.75" diameter, but has a section just behind the cats that necks down to 2.5" then back up to the 2.75 size.
Click to expand...

Interesting! I did not look at the entire system on the '12 I had here in the shop for comparison purposes as far as the entire exhaust system, just the front 1/2.

I'm glad that I am able to help, which is the primary purpose of this build thread. It's how I was helped many times on past builds myself, so it's only right I share as much as I can to help others.

I know I had promised pictures this last weekend, but i'm saving up a special surprise for you all, hopefully that will be up by this coming weekend. :cool4:
 
96gt4.6 said:
This is not entirely true, and not trying to be offensive, just correcting the statement.

Most all EcoBoost 3.5's are entirely speed density with no MAF sensor, there are some exceptions in the early 3.5L EcoBoost F150's however.

A good example would be the Taurus SHO Models with the 3.5L Eco. They have no MAF sensor whatsoever, as well as my 2015 F150 3.5L Eco has no MAF.

They do however, have two (and in some cases 3) MAP sensors and at least 2 IAT sensors, but all Eco 3.5L are Speed Density as far as fuel control goes.
Click to expand...

indeed your correct didnt think they went away from the maf sensor to map....
2012 3.5 eco boost........

Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor
Catalyst Monitor Sensor (CMS)
Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor
Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT) Sensor
Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) Sensor — 3.5L Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDI)
Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S)
Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Sensor — 3.5L GTDI
Knock Sensor (KS)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) /Intake Air Temperature 2 (IAT2) Sensor — 3.5L GTDI
Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor — 3.7L, 5.0L (4V) and 6.2L (2V)
PCM
Turbocharger Boost Pressure (TCBP) /Charge Air Cooler (CAC) Sensor — 3.5L GTDI
Variable Camshaft Timing (VCT) Oil Control Valve — 3.5L GTDI and 3.7L
VCT Variable Force Solenoid — 5.0L (4V) and 6.2L (2V)
__________________
 
The Coyote Copperhead ECU takes this a step further as well, it has a MAF, but no MAP. MAP is inferred based off of MAF flow and some complex quadratic equations. The flexibility of the stock PCM is very nice, tuning the Coyote was VERY simple once you grasp the general concept of where and how things work.

The constant closed loop fuel control is great, you simply type in the target AFR you want to achieve, and off you go!

I'm really excited to play with this system on boost!
 
96gt4.6 said:
The Coyote Copperhead ECU takes this a step further as well, it has a MAF, but no MAP. MAP is inferred based off of MAF flow and some complex quadratic equations. The flexibility of the stock PCM is very nice, tuning the Coyote was VERY simple once you grasp the general concept of where and how things work.

The constant closed loop fuel control is great, you simply type in the target AFR you want to achieve, and off you go!

I'm really excited to play with this system on boost!
Click to expand...

You're saying the Copperhead ECU uses wideband O2 sensors as well?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top