cam trigger wheel phase altered by degreeing cams?

L

lifespeed

Active member
Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
 
lifespeed said:
Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
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Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?
 
RubberCtyRauder said:
why is a speed, race shop asking cam degreeing errors? not being an a $$ here, but someone has been paying an awful lot of money to not have the shop figure it out. longest engine build in history of building motors, with price tag to boot
Click to expand...


This is about the Marauder ECU throwing an error codes (P1174, P1175) unfamiliar to the mechanic on duty. The wiring, connectors and fuses are all new, but have been double checked from ECU to sensor.

Here is what I found with Google:
http://p1174.obdcodes.me/mercury-marauder
http://p1175.obdcodes.me/mercury-marauder

Looking for Panther expertise! Whomever gives me the correct answer gets $$$!

KC is on vacation in Montana. So, I can sit around two weeks and wait or get some help now from our members.
 
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Seneca said:
Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?
Click to expand...


That's a good question for Lowndex. Livernois didn't do the long block, right? KC assembled the heads to the block and degreed the cams?


As far as I can tell the reluctor bump on the timing gear for the cam position sensor does not move with cam degree adjustments. The adjustment is at the interface to the cam, leaving the relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor unchanged with cam adjustment.


However, adjusting cam timing (or plain old making a mistake) by moving the chain off a tooth would change the relationship between the cam and crank signals.
 
lifespeed said:
That's a good question for Lowndex. Livernois didn't do the long block, right? KC assembled the heads to the block and degreed the cams?
Correct.



As far as I can tell the reluctor bump on the timing gear for the cam position sensor does not move with cam degree adjustments. The adjustment is at the interface to the cam, leaving the relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor unchanged with cam adjustment.


However, adjusting cam timing (or plain old making a mistake) by moving the chain off a tooth would change the relationship between the cam and crank signals.
Click to expand...
I will pass your input along.
 
In the dinosaur days of pushrod big block Chevys it was not unusual to use not only the offset keyways to degree a cam, sometimes the chain was deliberately jumped a tooth to arrive at the right cam timing due to tolerances in manufacturing of the crank and cam.


If the gear alignment is off by a tooth the crank vs. cam signal timing will be altered, even though the cam timing may (or may not) be degreed correctly. So it may still run well. The cam position sensor only needs to tell the PCM compression stroke vs exhaust, it doesn't need to be super accurate to fire the injector and coil correctly. Accuracy comes from the crank trigger.


However, cars are supposed to use their sensors and computer to be somewhat self-diagnostic. I know for a fact if the timing chain in my 3.6L DOHC Cadillac V6 stretches beyond acceptable limits, it will detect it using the cam and crank signal relationship and throw a code.


I guess there is a possibility your cam gear is a tooth off, and the PCM notices. I would like to get a better definition of those codes than that web link you posted, if possible.
 
lifespeed said:
Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
Click to expand...

I degreed my cams the old fashion way by grinding and cutting new keys. Never had any issues with the triggers.

I have 98 cobra cams FYI.
 
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P0340 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1) The test fails when the PCM can no longer detect the signal from the CMP sensor on Bank 1.

There is no listing in the service manual for P1174, 1175.

Maybe swap the sensor for a known good one? While it is out rotate the engine to TDC on #1 and look through the hole for the trigger tooth.
 
Any wiring harness chaffing on the back of the head? Never had issues after degreeing my aftermarket cams. Unless you have the TFS adjustable crank gears, the exhaust gear trigger position doesn’t change. It still wouldn’t cause codes unless something was really wrong. You have to remember, there’s a lot of ponies out there with the same cam/crank sensors running some crazy cams without these issues
 
Thank you, all. I will try Lifespeed's idea. If not resolved, time to call a Panther expert: Mo.
 
I called Marty's mobile and left a voice message asking for help. Essentially, I am offering to hire Marty (pay hourly labor rate) to counsel BRG Racing.
 
Tell them to drop them in D2D and be done with it.

They don't know how to degree cams on a 4v. Never should have offered you the service.

Hope you didn't get any piston to valve slap. Your Livernoise warranty would be void.
 
It isn't that hard :D 110/118 on the button...


album.php
 
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musclemerc said:
Tell them to drop them in D2D and be done with it.

They don't know how to degree cams on a 4v. Never should have offered you the service.

Hope you didn't get any piston to valve slap. Your Livernoise warranty would be void.
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Can you confirm (or not) the PCM can detect an out-of-spec relationship between crank trigger and cam sensor, and this will set the cam sensor code? Never heard of it in the context of the 4.6L 4V, but that could just be because nobody has screwed it up.
 
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