M
MMpridenjoy
Guest
I think this page makes for some interesting reading.
http://www.knfilters.com/facts.htm#BEYOND
http://www.knfilters.com/facts.htm#BEYOND
FordNut
Contributing Member
I run K&N filters on all my vehicles, the ones in my signature plus 2 motor homes and 2 motorcycles. I've never had a problem but I've never proven they help either. Hope to do two dyno runs on my stock MM next week, one with the stock filter and the other with the K&N. If I get it done, I'll post the results whichever way they go.
LincMercLover
Off duty.
I kinda doubt any significant increase in a stock air box. Now an FIPK I could see giving a few ponies to...
Read this section real carefully if you go with the K&N, or any other oiled filter, it is what caused most of the problems I have seen:
http://www.knfilters.com/facts.htm#OILING
The old "a little is good so more must be better" will really bite you on this one... Get the MAF sensors coated and you will a lot of fun getting that cleaned...
http://www.knfilters.com/facts.htm#OILING
The old "a little is good so more must be better" will really bite you on this one... Get the MAF sensors coated and you will a lot of fun getting that cleaned...
SergntMac
Shelby GT X2--Back In Black
Okay, I'm in...
Without a doubt, K&N filters are a valuable performance product. I've run their systems on a number of cars and bikes over the years, and they have shown remarkable performance where an increase in air flow, or, extra protection from excessive dirt was desired. In off-road applications, (dune buggy, 4X4) K&N is worth its weight in gold. It's also a proven solution for custom builds when the OEM stuff isn't workable anymore. Good stuff, yes, however, as I stated in another thread, I'm not sold on what any K&N package can offer me now.
I did a lot of racing and car building in my youth, a real lot. But, I've been away from it all for many, many years. I am disappointed that I'm not up to snuff in some areas, never seen a DOHC Lady with her bra off. But, it's also good to be less educated today, because I have to read up on the features of a particular product before I buy. I don't think enough of us here are reading up, we're just throwing old tricks at a brand new design without considering the true value of what we have in hand, and that's just plain wrong.
Start any ad you want with "15-20% gain," and I'll be asking you to prove it. Is this in HP?, TQ? Numbers please? Method of test? Most often the answers don't come easy, and many times, not at all. When the manufacturer can back his claim, I'm in. When Dennis Reinhart put his name on a chip, and explained why I should "use these plugs and stat," he came to prove his word. But, I don't believe anyone should buy into any product on advertising, or, past reputation alone.
I've taken my factory air box apart, and I've made comparasions to air boxes of similar cars. It's my opinion that the MM has one of the largest OD systems on the street, and the forced air flow is as clean and straightforward as the engine bay will allow at this time. Fresh cold air forced in from behind the grille, ported through a flat, even surfaced air filter, to a MAF that's as far from the heated motor as it could be, and into the motor with few bends as possible and no kinks. I've not seen a better design. I would like to see some changes at the front end, but I'll leave that to the alchemists.
First thing the FIPK does, is trade off fresh cold forced air for heated engine bay air it has to suck in on it's own. That's a loss, and I don't think there is a mathematical or performance equasion that can balance the trade off. The FIPK system does not produce air, it only maximizes the use of air available to it. Where this cold air was once forced into the system from forward movement of the car, the FIPK now sucks the hot air from inside the engine bay, where at some speeds, due to air damming and ground effects, air is more often sucked out than forced in. Your best air, is air forced into the system, and as cold as possible. This wasn't any different in the '60, and ignoring that defies customary logic.
Moreover, a lot of "weekend warriors" like to dress up their cars and engine bays with do-dads that make it look like they are in the know. Well, K&N is for you, for sure. The FIPK is a fancy looking piece of equipment, and your car will surely look faster, hood up at the hot dog stand. Mention K&N as the kick-ass mod on a site such as this, and it's an automatic sale for one or two warriors, just don't sticker-up the car, ok?
Add to that, the block-headed warrior who thinks he's smarter than the K&N guys, and you've got trouble. The FIPK system introduces an oil based cleaning process into the air system that enhances the filter's ability to pass air and capture what a normal filter may pass through. However, the oil based process has it's affect and over time, the MAF will become clogged and fail. I know more than one block head who believes that if the directions say "apply light film" they automatically believe that the'll get more by applying more and butter the filter like it's toast. Now, here's where you get your 15-20% gain...in repair bills.
The factory air system on the MM is the best we have going for us right now. Use standard and inexpensive filters and change often. You want as much cold, clean air going into the motor as you can get, and the factory air box provides that. You don't need a fancy filter that need to be washed every once in a while, and comes to foul the motor when you're too busy to pay attention. A filter system that's good fpr 100K between changes is perfect for the OTR trucker, but it's trouble for the performance car. And, if you get the K&N filter that fits our air box, it will cost you more per filter, provide the same performance, and I'm willing to bet that you'll change it less often.
Okay, come get me...cha-ching!
PS. added after post. Sorry to have covered thoughts already presented, it took me a while to write this.
Without a doubt, K&N filters are a valuable performance product. I've run their systems on a number of cars and bikes over the years, and they have shown remarkable performance where an increase in air flow, or, extra protection from excessive dirt was desired. In off-road applications, (dune buggy, 4X4) K&N is worth its weight in gold. It's also a proven solution for custom builds when the OEM stuff isn't workable anymore. Good stuff, yes, however, as I stated in another thread, I'm not sold on what any K&N package can offer me now.
I did a lot of racing and car building in my youth, a real lot. But, I've been away from it all for many, many years. I am disappointed that I'm not up to snuff in some areas, never seen a DOHC Lady with her bra off. But, it's also good to be less educated today, because I have to read up on the features of a particular product before I buy. I don't think enough of us here are reading up, we're just throwing old tricks at a brand new design without considering the true value of what we have in hand, and that's just plain wrong.
Start any ad you want with "15-20% gain," and I'll be asking you to prove it. Is this in HP?, TQ? Numbers please? Method of test? Most often the answers don't come easy, and many times, not at all. When the manufacturer can back his claim, I'm in. When Dennis Reinhart put his name on a chip, and explained why I should "use these plugs and stat," he came to prove his word. But, I don't believe anyone should buy into any product on advertising, or, past reputation alone.
I've taken my factory air box apart, and I've made comparasions to air boxes of similar cars. It's my opinion that the MM has one of the largest OD systems on the street, and the forced air flow is as clean and straightforward as the engine bay will allow at this time. Fresh cold air forced in from behind the grille, ported through a flat, even surfaced air filter, to a MAF that's as far from the heated motor as it could be, and into the motor with few bends as possible and no kinks. I've not seen a better design. I would like to see some changes at the front end, but I'll leave that to the alchemists.
First thing the FIPK does, is trade off fresh cold forced air for heated engine bay air it has to suck in on it's own. That's a loss, and I don't think there is a mathematical or performance equasion that can balance the trade off. The FIPK system does not produce air, it only maximizes the use of air available to it. Where this cold air was once forced into the system from forward movement of the car, the FIPK now sucks the hot air from inside the engine bay, where at some speeds, due to air damming and ground effects, air is more often sucked out than forced in. Your best air, is air forced into the system, and as cold as possible. This wasn't any different in the '60, and ignoring that defies customary logic.
Moreover, a lot of "weekend warriors" like to dress up their cars and engine bays with do-dads that make it look like they are in the know. Well, K&N is for you, for sure. The FIPK is a fancy looking piece of equipment, and your car will surely look faster, hood up at the hot dog stand. Mention K&N as the kick-ass mod on a site such as this, and it's an automatic sale for one or two warriors, just don't sticker-up the car, ok?
Add to that, the block-headed warrior who thinks he's smarter than the K&N guys, and you've got trouble. The FIPK system introduces an oil based cleaning process into the air system that enhances the filter's ability to pass air and capture what a normal filter may pass through. However, the oil based process has it's affect and over time, the MAF will become clogged and fail. I know more than one block head who believes that if the directions say "apply light film" they automatically believe that the'll get more by applying more and butter the filter like it's toast. Now, here's where you get your 15-20% gain...in repair bills.
The factory air system on the MM is the best we have going for us right now. Use standard and inexpensive filters and change often. You want as much cold, clean air going into the motor as you can get, and the factory air box provides that. You don't need a fancy filter that need to be washed every once in a while, and comes to foul the motor when you're too busy to pay attention. A filter system that's good fpr 100K between changes is perfect for the OTR trucker, but it's trouble for the performance car. And, if you get the K&N filter that fits our air box, it will cost you more per filter, provide the same performance, and I'm willing to bet that you'll change it less often.
Okay, come get me...cha-ching!
PS. added after post. Sorry to have covered thoughts already presented, it took me a while to write this.
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LincMercLover
Off duty.
Sarge,
Umm... I think you're thinking of those who just rip out the box, put a cone filter at the end of their intake tubing, and call it an FIPK. The difference there is the FIPK is sheilded from engine bay heat and gives a bigger area for cold air to pass through the fender and up into where this sheild is. Then the cone filter allows for a 360 degree area for air to enter during your "sucking" process. The second advantage to the FIPK to stock is the tubing itself. Look at mensrea's intake now. Carbon fiber that's smooth as silk on the inside all the way up. Look at ours. Rubber, ribbed, restrictive (and on I'm not talking about condoms here, I don't get THAT distracted...
). Now a K&N isn't carbon fiber (weight purposes), but it is plastic that is smoothed out on the inside to allow smoother flow into the throttle body.
And you are right about the oiling. I agree with you 100% on that. I know (not friends with) some Rice Kids up at school who have the theory of "more must be better" stuck in there head, and I've seen the results. This percaution, like that of your 2k interval oil changes and 10k interval tranny/rear end changes, must be taken in stride.
But, like you said, haven't seen any dyno's yet... And we won't have dyno's for the FIPK until K&N actually decides to come out with one. All we have is cross-referenced filters, which I don't think will give a tremendous advantage. We do however, have a couple people on here who are going to dyno the filter alone against the paper. We'll see what happens...
Umm... I think you're thinking of those who just rip out the box, put a cone filter at the end of their intake tubing, and call it an FIPK. The difference there is the FIPK is sheilded from engine bay heat and gives a bigger area for cold air to pass through the fender and up into where this sheild is. Then the cone filter allows for a 360 degree area for air to enter during your "sucking" process. The second advantage to the FIPK to stock is the tubing itself. Look at mensrea's intake now. Carbon fiber that's smooth as silk on the inside all the way up. Look at ours. Rubber, ribbed, restrictive (and on I'm not talking about condoms here, I don't get THAT distracted...
). Now a K&N isn't carbon fiber (weight purposes), but it is plastic that is smoothed out on the inside to allow smoother flow into the throttle body.And you are right about the oiling. I agree with you 100% on that. I know (not friends with) some Rice Kids up at school who have the theory of "more must be better" stuck in there head, and I've seen the results. This percaution, like that of your 2k interval oil changes and 10k interval tranny/rear end changes, must be taken in stride.
But, like you said, haven't seen any dyno's yet... And we won't have dyno's for the FIPK until K&N actually decides to come out with one. All we have is cross-referenced filters, which I don't think will give a tremendous advantage. We do however, have a couple people on here who are going to dyno the filter alone against the paper. We'll see what happens...
RF Overlord
73 is the best number.
Sarge, instead of the K&N, I think there is a more appropriate system for your car... http://www.kalecoauto.com/perf.htm ...third item down...
W
WolfeBros
Guest
I find when the Sarge has typed a response in a thread that it almost always saves me a good deal of typing here. Well written, well said post Sarge. I too think that the Marauder intake and filter assembly is one of the best that I have ever seen. Until someone can show me the numbers on a better one I will just keep to the filter changes.
Ditto that on the exhaust. Outside of headers I don't think there is much more to do underneath the car unless you are just changing to get a sound that suits you. The LM boys did their homework on getting this engine to breathe.
Ditto that on the exhaust. Outside of headers I don't think there is much more to do underneath the car unless you are just changing to get a sound that suits you. The LM boys did their homework on getting this engine to breathe.
RF Overlord
73 is the best number.
Dammit, WolfeBros, I've ASKED you politely to stop taking the words out of my mouth...
:lol:
:lol:
jgc61sr2002
Contributing Member
Leave the air box stock. The MM has the best designed system made in a factory production car. I for one will keep my MM stock. John 
W
WolfeBros
Guest
RF
I am beginning to think you are my evil twin. We both drive big bad black cars too.
I am beginning to think you are my evil twin. We both drive big bad black cars too.
gonzo50
Senior Member
For SergntMac:
Very well written and stated, you sure know how to put it in Perspective.
Between SergntMac and RF Overlord, they can publish a book on going in to great detail and analysis on any subject of the Marauder, and that's a good thing for someone like me or other reader's of this Forum.
Keep up the good work, don't stop. :beer:
Very well written and stated, you sure know how to put it in Perspective.
Between SergntMac and RF Overlord, they can publish a book on going in to great detail and analysis on any subject of the Marauder, and that's a good thing for someone like me or other reader's of this Forum.
Keep up the good work, don't stop. :beer:
S
SSMOKEM
Guest
I get my cold air in this way. If you look at the picture, you'll see the 2 rubber strips on top of the plastic housing. This seals against the hood and only allows cold air in from the front of the car. The bottom also seals against the radiator heat. The filter is an S&B.
FordNut
Contributing Member
Dyno Numbers
Finally got to the dyno. Here's some data:
Stock HP/Tq = 242/264
K&N Filter HP/Tq = 241/266
DR 91 octane pgm = 255/286
DR 93 octane pgm = 253/289
So the K&N filter doesn't do much for power, just longer maintenance intervals. The AFR was better but still way too rich compared to the chip. I think I'll repeat the test in the future comparing stock, K&N, and foam-type (old style Accel) filters, WITH the chip, stat, plugs, etc.
Also, sort of surprising the 2 programs didn't make much difference. I expected the 93 octane program to have more aggressive advance curve than the 91.
Finally got to the dyno. Here's some data:
Stock HP/Tq = 242/264
K&N Filter HP/Tq = 241/266
DR 91 octane pgm = 255/286
DR 93 octane pgm = 253/289
So the K&N filter doesn't do much for power, just longer maintenance intervals. The AFR was better but still way too rich compared to the chip. I think I'll repeat the test in the future comparing stock, K&N, and foam-type (old style Accel) filters, WITH the chip, stat, plugs, etc.
Also, sort of surprising the 2 programs didn't make much difference. I expected the 93 octane program to have more aggressive advance curve than the 91.
Hey link check out the wings on a lot of aircraft. Not to mention the vaulted hemi head. They put rakes and such to cause turbulance! At the speeds that this enginge sucks air the ribbs and such in the intake are a non issue.LincMercLover said:Sarge,
Umm... I think you're thinking of those who just rip out the box, put a cone filter at the end of their intake tubing, and call it an FIPK. The difference there is the FIPK is sheilded from engine bay heat and gives a bigger area for cold air to pass through the fender and up into where this sheild is. Then the cone filter allows for a 360 degree area for air to enter during your "sucking" process. The second advantage to the FIPK to stock is the tubing itself. Look at mensrea's intake now. Carbon fiber that's smooth as silk on the inside all the way up. Look at ours. Rubber, ribbed, restrictive (and on I'm not talking about condoms here, I don't get THAT distracted...
And you are right about the oiling. I agree with you 100% on that. I know (not friends with) some Rice Kids up at school who have the theory of "more must be better" stuck in there head, and I've seen the results. This percaution, like that of your 2k interval oil changes and 10k interval tranny/rear end changes, must be taken in stride.
But, like you said, haven't seen any dyno's yet... And we won't have dyno's for the FIPK until K&N actually decides to come out with one. All we have is cross-referenced filters, which I don't think will give a tremendous advantage. We do however, have a couple people on here who are going to dyno the filter alone against the paper. We'll see what happens...
L
looking97233
Guest
Looking at the K&N site and doing a product search, the only filter listed has a comment of "W". Looking further I read this "W" refers to the engine code in the vehicles VIN. Our engine has a "V" VIN code. Just what I read at K&N's site.
In another life, I was involved with engine applications into off-road machinery (farm tractors and construction equipment). Trust me, there's a no worse dust condition for an engine to survive in than a farm tractor pulling an implement at 5 mph with a slight tailwind. Pre-cleaners (centrifugal devices) and paper filters were used---I repeat PAPER filters. Expense for a good air cleaner protecting a $15,000 plus engine on a $100,000 plus vehicle wasn't an issue either. An "after-market" filter that offers more air flow will likely have larger openings in it's media---leading to coarser particles getting through and shorter engine life. But let's face it, how many of us gear-heads really run a "performance" vehicle to a 100,000 plus miles without trading, changing, or breaking the engine. When an engine goes sour on us, we don't blame the filter, we blame our driving. So the "after-market" people can make all kinds of wild claims.
By the way, oil and oiled media aren't really new technology either. The first air cleaners used one or both. Engine and vehicle builders went to paper because of both better filtration and better airflow for the same amount of space.
Long and short of it, changing the air cleaner on a modern air intake system isn't a good way to get more power (see dyno numbers above) but can be a very good way to shorten the life of the engine. Let's face it, as hard as some Mercury engineer worked to get the most power out of the MM (without screwing up emissions or mpg), if a few bucks would have added 10 hp, even the bean counters would have gone along with it on this car.
The funny part about all of this is that (if you haven't figured it out by my handle), I have one (if not only) car produced in modern times (is 1967 still modern??) that has an oil wetted air cleaner. It was used because of air flow requirements and lack of space for a proper paper air cleaner---------and the Corvette engineers won't worrying about 100,000 mile engine life either. I also suspect marketing liked the trianglar shape of the air cleaner.
Let the flames begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:flamer:
By the way, oil and oiled media aren't really new technology either. The first air cleaners used one or both. Engine and vehicle builders went to paper because of both better filtration and better airflow for the same amount of space.
Long and short of it, changing the air cleaner on a modern air intake system isn't a good way to get more power (see dyno numbers above) but can be a very good way to shorten the life of the engine. Let's face it, as hard as some Mercury engineer worked to get the most power out of the MM (without screwing up emissions or mpg), if a few bucks would have added 10 hp, even the bean counters would have gone along with it on this car.
The funny part about all of this is that (if you haven't figured it out by my handle), I have one (if not only) car produced in modern times (is 1967 still modern??) that has an oil wetted air cleaner. It was used because of air flow requirements and lack of space for a proper paper air cleaner---------and the Corvette engineers won't worrying about 100,000 mile engine life either. I also suspect marketing liked the trianglar shape of the air cleaner.
Let the flames begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:flamer:
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W
WolfeBros
Guest
No flames for you. A 67 vette with 427/435hp gets my respect and admiration. One of my all time favorite cars. :bows: