Valvetrain noise?

[klowpez]

Hello all-
I recently got ahold of a new to me 2004 Marauder with (currently) 76k on it. I've only put about 1000 miles on it since i got it. Only things I've done is new serpentine belt, tensioners/pulleys, oil and diff fluid changes. The car runs and drives great but I'm going crazy trying to decipher this noise. I've read about everything from ticking injectors to rod knock. The issue here is I'm stuck on the symptoms and can't narrow it down. I'm looking for someone that has had a similar noise/fix. For the record- the noise was there when I bought it but it was in good enough shape for me to buy it anyway.

Symptoms are:

-At WARM IDLE/ HOT IDLE- slight tapping or ticking noise coming from the Passenger/RH cylinder head/valve cover area. It's real faint/dull metallic-ey echo-ey? The second you give it some gas it goes away, and is only heard again once the engine comes to rest at idle. I cannot hear this noise at cold start or while accelerating.

-can't really hear it inside the car unless you're up against a median or a drive thru, if you stand outside with the hood closed you can hear it from the rh wheel well area or if you pop the hood.
-no check engine light
-spark plugs just checked/replaced with the NGK 4177s (noise was there before this) and all spark plugs/threads were tight though it did look like someone had replaced coil #1 before.
-sometimes it's louder than others-sometimes it's barely there but I'm extremely sensitive to weird noises so it bothers me and i listen for it constantly
-I ran 3oz of seafoam in the engine oil for maybe 20 miles as things like that in oil worry me - but the noise is still there. I then promptly changed the oil with valvoline semi syn.5w20

Worth mentioning:
-The only other issues with this car is if i let it sit for weeks, the first start up is a little chattery, but promptly goes away after a few seconds- and normal from what i've read on here.
-A very faint/slight vibration at 1500-1900RPM.

My thoughts are:
*Lash adjuster (hopeful)-but the symptoms don't make sense!- Do i really need to drop the motor for valve cover removal??
*Rod knock/wrist pin-wouldn't I hear this at all RPMs? ESPECIALLY cold starts?
*Timing chain?- but again from what I've read i would hear the noise mostly up front and it would be constant thru the RPMs
*Do these 4V have oil restrictors like the 2v? Is it possible I'm not getting enough oil to the RH head at idle? How would i find this on the 4v?

At this point , I think I'm gonna pull the valve cover off anyway and check the adjusters. What SHOULD I be looking for? Any tips/tricks?

Video link:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rmtXaRMf-ow&feature=shares

 

[justbob]

You will drive yourself insane trying to make a 4V idle quietly. There is a lot happening in there and at 76,000 miles I can assure you that it doesn’t need anything unless it was badly abused.

Cam covers: remove the two 18MM engine mount nuts (straight up thru the K member), jack up engine. Sometimes even better to just raise the side you’re removing leaving the nut on the opposite side so you get a tilting action. Easy peasy.

I’ve got long arms and can reach the nuts with an impact without even lifting the car up.


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[SilverPhoenix]

Don't have an answer to your question, but just wanted to say you should change the tranny fluid unless you know it's already been done. I bought my MM with 57K on the clock and had the tranny fluid changed at 75K and 125K. I just rolled over 180K a week ago and this thread made me realize I haven't changed the tranny fluid since 125K, so need to have that done soon.

 

[klowpez]

Will do on the tranny fluid. What’s the most recommended ?

UPDATE/MORE QUESTIONS:
I went to harbor freight after work today. Got a stethoscope. Listed thru all the valve cover bolts and while I can hear the tapping I mostly heard flapping which to me sounded normal. Except when I got to the rearmost bolt the tapping noise I’ve been hearing got louder. I compared it to the other side. And although maybe slightly more insulated ? I could still hear it.

here’s where it gets weird. I put the stethoscope to the oil pan and all I could hear was whooshing. Same thing to the exhaust manifolds. Though I couldn’t reach say the side of the block I think this rules out the bottom end. I put it to the trans pan and I heard a faint tap. Nothing from the cats. So I went back up top. And put the stethoscope on the upper intake plenum. I heard the tap right around the back most part. So then I put it to the bell housing ( the very top where I could just barely reach) and that sound was very very clear there. I’ll get it on a lift this week and see if I can do that again.



here’s my dilemma. What gives ? I swore it was from the passenger side. But maybe it’s in the middle ?
Until I can get it on the lift I have 2 questions :
1- on the backside of the motor. Passenger side. Directly in front of the trans dip there seems to be a broken chunk of something ?
what goes here. Along with the bolt holding down nothing on the cowl?
2- flex plate. Would my symptoms make sense ? Maybe at higher RPM the sound is too low a frequency to discern from the motor noise ?

edit- also listened at front timing covers. Dead silent.

 

[justbob]

Top circle is (was) the ground strap to the engine that bolts to the back of the engine.

Bottom circle is just a freeze plug with what looks like junk sitting on it.

You quite possibly here a bit of valve tick as these heads didn’t have means of cooling the rear cylinders. There is a couple of different rear head cooling mods available.

Flex plates have cracked on these but isn’t what I’d call very common.


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[klowpez]

Top circle is (was) the ground strap to the engine that bolts to the back of the engine.

Bottom circle is just a freeze plug with what looks like junk sitting on it.

You quite possibly here a bit of valve tick as these heads didn’t have means of cooling the rear cylinders. There is a couple of different rear head cooling mods available.

Flex plates have cracked on these but isn’t what I’d call very common.


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Thanks for your time and help.

Where might I find the rest of this ground strap ? Reasons to remove this strap ? Maybe someone swapped out the intake plenum ????
I figured it was a freeze plug there but the chunk missing right above it (on said plenum) threw me off along with what looks like a flange on either side of that plug with bolt holes. Is this what they all look like ?

Leave it to me to have the most uncommon issue with their cars ( it’s just my luck). Is there a way to confirm that you might know of ?
I dunno - it doesn’t sound like normal valve tick to me. It’s less of a ticking and more of a tapping. Again this is my first 4V so maybe you’re right. You think it’s still worth taking the valve covers off? Would a lash adjuster make this noise ? How could I confirm a bad valve ?

Here’s a link to a better video. I used a scan tool to cut the idle down to 4-600 RPM.

https://youtu.be/CDt0jUfi7sM


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[klowpez]

Also. I know the clicking from the injectors is very prominent. I’m talking about that knocking in the background most clearly heard after 1:42 in that video.


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[blazen71]

Sounds like piston slap to me. If that's what it is, you can run it for years without issue. Rod knock would be twice as fast and it'd get worse daily.

 

[TORINO]

On a push rod motor that has suffered poor maintenance / lack of oil changes will have lifter ticking. What does an overhead cam sound like with gummed up lifters ? You may want to just put some miles on it and see if any thing changes ??

 

[klowpez]

Sounds like piston slap to me. If that's what it is, you can run it for years without issue. Rod knock would be twice as fast and it'd get worse daily.

Do the symptoms make sense for piston slap though? Honestly, now I'm doubting the sound entirely after hearing it thru the intake manifold/bellhousing. Wouldn't I hear piston slap resonate thru the oil pan?

Last night after I pulled it out of the shop, there was a little poof of blue smoke. Granted, I've had this car since spring time and haven't driven it much so I forgot that when I first bought it , it had blue smoke at startup for the first few times. I figured leaky valve seal or something from sitting for so long. I haven't noticed it the last few times I've driven it until last night. But I had it idling for about an hour while I was probing around. I will say- I also ran a can of seafoam spray thru the throttle body when I first got it and it was the craziest display of a smokeshow I've ever seen and while it might have been placebo it made me feel like it was quieter for a little bit then. Maybe carbon build up on a valve?

The thing that gets me is that most of the time it's real noticeable, sometimes it's not. And before I go taking things apart amidst a Northeast winter, I want to have a game plan.

 

[klowpez]

On a push rod motor that has suffered poor maintenance / lack of oil changes will have lifter ticking. What does an overhead cam sound like with gummed up lifters ? You may want to just put some miles on it and see if any thing changes ??

Right, but this is a little different than any lifter tick I've heard. Again this is my first 4V, I've had 3 other 2v Grand marquis and towncars and none of them have made this noise. I know there's only 11,000 of us - but SOMEBODY had to have had this before lol.
Funny - cause if i search on youtube for mercury marauder noise there's plenty of videos with pretty much the same sound I hear. But nobody ever comes back with a fix lol.

 

[klowpez]

Here's where I'm at for now if anyone can help:

1- on the back of the intake manifold, in this case the only angle i can really see is the passenger side. Right above that freeze plug (pictured above), does it look like there's a chunk missing from everyone's intake manifold? Just a rough casting?
2-Let's say bad valve- would I hear this under these conditions? Maybe if i stethoscope the tailpipe? Though I didn't hear anything at the Cats. Is there a way to confirm this?
3-Can we rule out the bottom end wrist pin/piston slap if i can't hear it thru the oil pan?
4-Can we rule out chain chatter/slap if i don't hear it from the timing covers?
4-does the flexplate theory make sense? At all?
5-above we discovered that I'm missing a ground strap that mounts to the firewall, somebody left the bolt there. Where does the other end go? What would be the reason someone would remove this?

6-Would oil in the spark plug wells cause an undetected misfire? (reference to my remembering above of the blue smoke at startup when i first bought it-Already changed the PCV valve too) I'll attach a pic of spark plugs.Picture orientation is facing the motor.

7-What are the odds that someone can stethoscope their engine or even take a video at warm idle and just listen. Maybe it is normal???
For reference here is where I can hear that metallic tapping on top of the plenum.

ALSO- the stickers on the sides, are these factory?


View attachment 52681View attachment 52682

 

[blazen71]

Young Jedi, relax. Take a breath and drive it a bit and see if it gets worse or not. Then start attacking your list one at a time. Nobody is going to be able to diagnose your car via the internet. If you spend all your time obsessing about what it could be, instead of ruling things out one at a time, you're going to have some serious panic attacks and never get anywhere with your diagnosis. Remember, one thing at a time.

 

[klowpez]

Young Jedi, relax. Take a breath and drive it a bit and see if it gets worse or not. Then start attacking your list one at a time. Nobody is going to be able to diagnose your car via the internet. If you spend all your time obsessing about what it could be, instead of ruling things out one at a time, you're going to have some serious panic attacks and never get anywhere with your diagnosis. Remember, one thing at a time.

I appreciate that, you're right and luckily i have other cars to drive. I know nobody can diagnose it over the internet, but just a little guidance is all we need sometimes : ) . In this case- some guidance with the above questions lol.

 

[TORINO]

With blue smoke on start up yes would be from the seals. With the noise none of this should be on a 75k mile engine. Have you done a car fax to check mileage ? I have had a thermostat stick and if you keep driving to were it is convenient to stop the engine could be cooked.
The rattle on start up from the chain is not a problem but also goes to the engine condition.

 

[klowpez]

With blue smoke on start up yes would be from the seals. With the noise none of this should be on a 75k mile engine. Have you done a car fax to check mileage ? I have had a thermostat stick and if you keep driving to were it is convenient to stop the engine could be cooked.
The rattle on start up from the chain is not a problem but also goes to the engine condition.

I did do a carfax, not much info for early 2000s it seems, a lot of "vehicle serviced" at dealers, but no other real info. Mileage in tune with the carfax years/reg dates, no reported issues.
I for sure haven't overheated it, no coolant loss at all (at least over the last 1000 miles), i figured that's what that noise is. again doesn't do it every time, only if it sits for weeks at a time.

 

[TORINO]

You will have to just drive it and see how the noise goes. Transmission just get a filter and 5 qts of mercon V the stock pan gasket is reusable, much better than cork. If you find a plastic thing rolling around in the pan you will know it has never been off, it's the factory plug for dip stick. You should also do the differential, you have to pull the cover. 3 qts 75-140 for limited slip diff. New brake fluid would also be good thing to do. Antifreeze good ? Fuel filter ? on The frame front of r/r wheel

 

[justbob]

Piston slap is best heard top center of engine. As for blue smoke at start up, it’s a character thing as most did that from day one brand new. Lots of talk in the early days about it and ultimately we just drove them.


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[blackcar]

The noise can also be possibly coming from a bearing in the alternator, ac compressor, belt tensioner, power steering pump
or possibly the water pump. See if you can isolate those items.

Word of advice before you mess with the antifreeze draining and refilling make sure you get the burbing routine down pat.

 

[klowpez]

Alright guys. I know I’m all over the place but maybe this will help someone in the future too.

Hear me out …
I’ll upload a video in the morning. But I poked around everywhere with a stethoscope again.
Timing covers , valve covers, pulleys , but I just kept hearing it at the back part of the intake. So I put it in the air.
Poked around the bottom end, oil pan , whatever bits of the head I could reach but it was pretty much silent until I got to the backend of the motor. Either side really. The sound travels very strange on this motor. But - I found a few things.

Firstly - I found the other end of my ground strap. I’ll figure out how to fish that back up later.

Second- The noise is heard clear as day with a stethoscope on one of the starter bolts and bellhousing.

I took off the lower inspection cap ..

… this can’t be normal right ? It seems like gouges on the TC , and a deeeep gouge on the flex plate itself.

Now. Again. I know we can’t diagnose over the internet. I’m just looking for insight. Maybe someone’s seen it before. Etc. worst case you guys are tagging along my adventure lol.

Ground strap being loose is evidence of someone being in here before. I also saw a blue head gasket on the driver side head from underneath. Blue is Felpro
Isn’t it ?

Video to follow …

Video :



https://youtu.be/IyWi-cDgESI


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